tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post2851604702219783586..comments2024-03-26T07:57:53.601+00:00Comments on Miranda Threlfall-Holmes: Sex and MarriageMirandahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09436701820363040984noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-63002696450684881662017-01-28T22:25:36.328+00:002017-01-28T22:25:36.328+00:00This was like a breath of fresh air - I'm so g...This was like a breath of fresh air - I'm so glad I stumbled across this blog. Please keep posting! You give me hope for the future of the church! Krissiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01139827100407032592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-21556280084530358082015-07-22T01:50:51.194+01:002015-07-22T01:50:51.194+01:00I wonder about that ... really I do, from my rea...I wonder about that ... really I do, from my reading Liberals take the Bible seriously but tend to make the words mean whatever suits the current cultural way of thinking.<br />But re same-sex marriage ... I don't have any answers but I do have a problem ... Jesus Himself validates the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman by referencing Adam and Eve (Matt.19:1-12) ...<br />Then there is the problem of the prohibitions of sex between members of the same gender ... especially in Romans 1 ...<br />Yes, I have read the usual explanations ... but they tend to come across as making the Bible say what we want it to say....<br />dcljoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08796062107346984992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-57895647519553261142014-03-28T05:55:11.444+00:002014-03-28T05:55:11.444+00:00OBAT PERANGSANG WANITA POTENZOL ini berasal dari n...OBAT PERANGSANG WANITA POTENZOL ini berasal dari negara jerman, paling manjur untuk mengatasi para wanita yang kurang bergairah dalam berhubungan intim, dapat membangkitkan rangsangan sex secara spontan dan instan. by : www.FatmaFarma.comobat perangsang wanitahttp://www.fatmafarma.com/obat-perangsang/obat-perangsang-wanita-potenzol.htmlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-21076085728720363152014-03-19T13:36:39.850+00:002014-03-19T13:36:39.850+00:00The obvious answer to that is to question why they...The obvious answer to that is to question why they then allow post-menopausal women to marry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-1286985009741089342014-03-18T19:09:29.739+00:002014-03-18T19:09:29.739+00:00Traditional Church teaching on marriage is based ...Traditional Church teaching on marriage is based on the natural law which views sexual intercourse as being both unitive and procreative. There is a large part of Christ's Body who cannot see how homosexual acts are this and thus cannot be described as marriage. Lyn.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-22383739282498428052014-03-17T16:31:59.582+00:002014-03-17T16:31:59.582+00:00Which has been removed from CW for very good reaso...Which has been removed from CW for very good reason!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07790562194007443886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-9032074921335243792014-03-17T16:30:55.143+00:002014-03-17T16:30:55.143+00:00So who married them then, God?So who married them then, God?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07790562194007443886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-82380467474937757092014-03-17T11:25:22.766+00:002014-03-17T11:25:22.766+00:00To reinforce comments by Jonathan and Phil:
First,...To reinforce comments by Jonathan and Phil:<br />First, there was no Christian marriage service until about the 7th century and even then many Christians did not use it - living together is the more ancient practice rather than official service. As Miranda points out, the church tried to ensure marriage was not a property transaction. (It failed at least in parts - the mediaeval French rite treats the bride bas property to be handed from one man (the father) to another (the groom)). <br /><br />Then there is Genesis! Before the creation of Eve (a name meaning 'life' and not a girl's name - we have made it into that) Adam seems to have been androgynous - again Adam is not a male name in Hebrew and is a pun an adamah (dust). Hence Tribble translates adam as 'earth creature' - clunky but accurate! So, sorry Ender's Shadow but you need to read the Hebrew a bit more closely. And no, there is no marriage service in Genesis and the creation ordinance seems to be about men and women needing each other - it's a stretch to say what mean by marriage is a creation ordinance. In any case, if it is an ordinance, is it commanded that all shall enter into it? If by ordinance we mean something like 'provision' as in the Reformed use of ordinance to refer to baptism or eucharist, then again Genesis is not precise enough to make the point some want to make. Charles Readhttp://www.diocesofnorwich.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-60868315435429275402014-03-17T08:51:40.904+00:002014-03-17T08:51:40.904+00:00Surely the key difference that liberals don't ...Surely the key difference that liberals don't subscribe to biblical authority. Allowing liberals to dispense with the unending exegesis, simply say, "the Bible is wrong," and move on. Byronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05023778745849420397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-50466392790767042252014-03-15T06:36:55.694+00:002014-03-15T06:36:55.694+00:00I should add, that's the Bishops in the House ...I should add, that's the Bishops in the House of Bishops who have signed up to the 'Pastoral Guidance' I'm referring to — there are several non-HoB Bishops who have already realised this and openly support equal marriage; don't want to label all Bishops the same!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05709049598918097427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-72312996450115649302014-03-15T06:32:00.382+00:002014-03-15T06:32:00.382+00:00Seems to me — with apologies to those who've h...Seems to me — with apologies to those who've heard me banging on about this before — that the critical issue is faithfulness. What God expects of his people is faithfulness, to one another and to God. Way back when the biblical writers were doing what looks to us like gay-bashing, the idea of stable, faithful same sex relationships wasn't there: in their worldview, everyone was hetero and you could only have a same sex relationship by betraying that norm, by being unfaithful to a straight partner. In today's world, that's no longer so; and the dear old Bishops in the C of E are still living in yesterday's world, thinking heteronormacy rules: in their mindset, the accident of gender difference takes priority over the virtue of faithfulness; and until they can get their heads around that conundrum, they're stuck in a rut. <br /><br />Dear Bishops, if any of you are reading, perchance, please reflect on this and ask yourselves whether God — who pictures the relationships between Israel and God and between Jesus and the Church as a marriage — is really bothered about gender differences? What aspect of marriage is critical to these relationships? What is it that truly makes a marriage?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05709049598918097427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-16254722661638923052014-03-14T17:03:55.597+00:002014-03-14T17:03:55.597+00:00Who married Adam and Eve then? They were the only ...Who married Adam and Eve then? They were the only people on earth at that time. And exactly where in the Bible does God define marriage? Sorry, doesn't do it for me. The vicsmate aka Carolehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14960019441270015759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-26125529391878190092014-03-14T16:46:55.932+00:002014-03-14T16:46:55.932+00:00I like the Biblical view in the Song of Songs. A c...I like the Biblical view in the Song of Songs. A couple, unmarried, who delight in one another, who enjoy sex as part of a fulfilling relationship of love - the sheer joy of their bodily union enriching the union of their hearts and lives. This is marriage - a covenant made by 2 people and that the family and community bear witness to and seek to prayerfully affirm and bless.<br />Ianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00936582721726347651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-87140426390805649582014-03-14T16:28:48.036+00:002014-03-14T16:28:48.036+00:00Yes. I think the main difference between Evangelic...Yes. I think the main difference between Evangelicals and Liberals is that liberals take the Bible much more seriously.Mirandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09436701820363040984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-10668272666439945402014-03-14T16:23:07.322+00:002014-03-14T16:23:07.322+00:00I think we should acknowledge Ender Shadow's b...I think we should acknowledge Ender Shadow's brilliant achievement. It begins by complaining that you 'fail to use biblical argument' and then goes on to say marriage is 'a creation ordinance defined by God as being between a man and woman'. All we need now is Ender Shadow's new edition of the Bible. The old, obviously outdated, one neither describes marriage as a creation ordinance (that was Luther's idea) nor defines it as being between a man and a woman. In fact, it doesn't define marriage at all.Jonathan Clatworthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00131741258996509637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-63489623954278571462014-03-14T14:04:28.223+00:002014-03-14T14:04:28.223+00:00Wel said. And you are right that it doesn't sa...Wel said. And you are right that it doesn't say Eve and Adam were married in the Bible.- words for 'women' frequently mean 'wife' as well.Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08076057434281738924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-811775822504275572014-03-14T11:39:27.391+00:002014-03-14T11:39:27.391+00:00"I'd love to see the Church get back on i..."I'd love to see the Church get back on its real high horse, campaigning vociferously and in every nation for the interests of two people in love to trump political unease or vested interests. Any chance?"<br /><br />I have every intention of making this so. It may take many years and the battle may be won long before the church ever takes that side, but we can hope!<br /><br />This (institutional church homophobia) too shall pass, after all.Dan Barnes-Davieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15690862787069343095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-20389165509556721162014-03-14T09:40:44.826+00:002014-03-14T09:40:44.826+00:00Actually, some of us have made this point, and hav...Actually, some of us have made this point, and have been making it for quite some time, albeit perhaps not spelt out as clearly as you've made it here. See, for instance, <a href="http://philgroom.wordpress.com/2009/08/07/notes-from-a-gay-christian-woman/" rel="nofollow">Notes from a Gay Christian Woman</a><br /><br /><i>You say it’s OK to be gay as long as I don’t do gay: that I must remain celibate. You say that sex is for marriage, but you deny me that privilege. You put fences around me — for my protection, you say. But that’s not true, is it? The fences are for your protection, to keep you safe from me, from the threat that I and my friends supposedly present to your nice, clean-cut clearly defined community.</i><br /><br />Also in my <a href="http://philgroom.wordpress.com/2014/03/01/heaven-is-weeping-an-open-letter-to-the-house-of-bishops-c_of_e-justinwelby-johnsentamu/" rel="nofollow">Open Letter to the House of Bishops</a>:<br /><br /><i>So you place both gay clergy and gay laity in a double-bind, in a Catch-22 situation, caught out by the Church’s proper teaching that sexual activity belongs within the context of marriage but, when presented by the State with a lawful opportunity to marry, either denied that opportunity altogether (clergy) or denied the opportunity to celebrate that relationship (laity) by the Church.</i><br /><br />Oh, and in response to "Ender's Shadow" — sorry mate, but no way were Adam & Eve married: no ceremony, no contract, no priest or registrar: just lovers doing what lovers do and producing babies. The Genesis account isn’t about marriage: it’s about procreation, another step in the great epic of creation itself. We’ve taken hold of that story and imbued it with a theology of marriage, but marriage itself as we define it is simply not there in the creation story.<br /><br />Marriage isn't a "creation ordinance" (whatever that's supposed to mean) — marriage and the conventions we’ve placed around the reproductive process are human constructs, which God has graciously seen fit to bless; and despite the naysayers, we who defined it in the first place have every right to redefine it for today's context.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05709049598918097427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-19896993008630289102014-03-13T23:36:15.909+00:002014-03-13T23:36:15.909+00:00Helpful answer, thanks. I still feel your attempt ...Helpful answer, thanks. I still feel your attempt to deny that Adam and Eve were married is ill-founded - indeed God's presenting Eve to Adam can be seen as the precursor to the BCP 'Who giveth this woman to be married to this man?'Ender's Shadownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-48036558291651402072014-03-13T22:08:46.097+00:002014-03-13T22:08:46.097+00:00Thank you for reading, Enders Shadow. Please be as...Thank you for reading, Enders Shadow. Please be assured that many other people have concentrated on the Biblical side of this, and what I am doing here is trying to fill a gap in the Tradition/Reason/Experience sides of the Quadrilateral. I have focused on these areas because they are under explored in current discussions, not because they are all I think important. I hope that is fairly clear to everyone reading this.Mirandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09436701820363040984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-55294003431131691872014-03-13T21:21:21.711+00:002014-03-13T21:21:21.711+00:00It is boringly predictable to see a feminist '...It is boringly predictable to see a feminist 'Christian' fail to use biblical argument but instead go to prove that she's really only interested in sociology / psychology.<br />For the record, the creation story in Genesis uses the Hebrew word that is routinely translated as 'wife' of Eve before the fall (see Gen 2:24,25), so they were 'married'.<br /><br />But the core point about marriage is that it is a creation ordinance defined by God as being between a man and woman. Given that, it is pure rebellion to try to redefine it as what it isn't. You may try to pretend to the world that the dog over there is a cat, but in reality it isn't. You may try to redefine it as a cat, you may demand that I pretend it is a cat, but it will still remain a dog...Ender's Shadowhttp://endersshadowsnr.tumblr.com/archivenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-11306428295364662382014-03-13T20:03:02.213+00:002014-03-13T20:03:02.213+00:00Ditto. A fascinating piece. Thank you.Ditto. A fascinating piece. Thank you.BeaPeahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05112717627614183179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-27954952304326337372014-03-13T12:41:56.599+00:002014-03-13T12:41:56.599+00:00Thanks!Thanks!Mirandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09436701820363040984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-24835585660127655132014-03-13T12:11:17.000+00:002014-03-13T12:11:17.000+00:00*applauds**applauds*Charlottehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16791739123869139938noreply@blogger.com