tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post5227216509684315185..comments2024-03-26T07:57:53.601+00:00Comments on Miranda Threlfall-Holmes: Accessible Baptism?Mirandahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09436701820363040984noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-63920986093966003412014-01-07T22:10:35.475+00:002014-01-07T22:10:35.475+00:00Thanks, Miranda, for your experiential account of ...Thanks, Miranda, for your experiential account of the proposed new Baptismal Rite. It seemed me me, a member of ACANZP, that people like Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali were most disturbed about the omission of the the naming of 'The Devil' or .'Satan' in the new rite, seemingly ignoring the fact that blaming 'The Devil' for our own human sins can be a real get-out from personal responsibility for them.<br /><br />I applaud the decision to make the rite more accessible to ALL people - regardless of their intellectual appreciation of the mystery involved. This is God's action of grace towards God's children. All we need do is receive it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-55539155174603250972014-01-07T16:19:03.375+00:002014-01-07T16:19:03.375+00:00Thanks for this, Miranda. Interestingly, one of th...Thanks for this, Miranda. Interestingly, one of the other good features of the Methodist baptism services is that the "promises" take place after the baptism itself- a clear and deliberate reminder of prevenient grace- which occupied and still occupies such an important place in Wesleyan theology. Thomasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-56775767505788703532014-01-07T16:04:09.879+00:002014-01-07T16:04:09.879+00:00Hello MIranda, my three parishes are also trial pa...Hello MIranda, my three parishes are also trial parishes for the experimental baptismal liturgy. Like you, I was not sure about the trial Decision words, and I completely agree that the sense of 'turn', which is beautifully managed in the words you quote above, is a serious loss There's something a bit flatly propositional about 'rejecting evil', and baptism is an event, not a spoken intention. But I wanted to say that I took my first service with the trial words this last Sunday and the effect in context is strikingly more impressive than the words on the page. Because it's all so simple it supports rather than supplanting the signing of the cross and the baptismal use of water - it makes plain the shape of the action. It felt much easier than usual to show the shape of what was happening, because speech was sparse enough to be, well, performative. Even the Decision had a gravitas - more than one person commented afterwards on the effect of hearing a group of people say they would have no truck with evil and its empty promises. It struck them as a serious thing and more than one of them recalled the BCP 'lusts of the flesh' moment there, which was a surprise. I more and more feel that baptism, being so foundational, ought to have a kind of bedrock simplicity in its rite as well. Everything else follows from it. I'd be very interested to know how it feels to you when you come to your baptisms next month - mine was a bit unusual because the family was very churched and knew what they were doing. Also the very new baptismal leaflet we have designed in our parishes for use in baptism prep had worked well with them possibly for the same reason - it traces the metaphors in word and picture of spirit, water and light using creation and Jesus's baptism as its two main scriptural fixed points for meditation, which suits the stripped-down 'Prayer over the Water' rather precisely. So my sense that it all cohered may have other sources than the experimental words of the baptismal liturgy! All the best, Jessica (Martin)Jessica Martinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5557921162362661008.post-74243853815942807162014-01-07T15:46:21.360+00:002014-01-07T15:46:21.360+00:00Miranda - good points re accessibility - but sure...Miranda - good points re accessibility - but surely one of the points is that the Church of England being the Established Church of England needs to pursue and integrate a policy of PLAIN ENGLISH in its essential rites of passage so that there is maximised inclusion in its reach with understanding - in much the same way as all our education conduits, legal services, health services and social services need to do in their public facing work. This would then enable the church of England develop a mission focussed outreach to the general public which was not about promoting 'the Establishment' or Western Christendom highlights of Great Prose we have read - as in the King James Bible etc - but about making plain the invitation of the Church community through its various rites in this instance Baptism - but it should be a plain/ inclusive option in any other of the rites it is charged with - marriage, funeral, confirmation, - available to all no matter what level of education has been attained, purchased or accessed by those who as adults are seeking their benefit. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com